In Genesis 1:28, I read that passage (with the context of the New Testament) that Christians need to share the Good News and help others to come into a relationship with God; I do not read that passage as a command to have more children. (I mean, have children by your choice, but not because you have a misconceived perception that God is commanding you to.)
I wonder if this misinterpretation (in my opinion) also causes Christians in USA to believe that IVF is their right. I wonder if this also leads to the USA church to unduly (and the Catholic church) to overemphasize the need to procreate. Shouldn't we have more elders in churches who are single and/or do not have children? Shouldn't Christians look at adoption as a step to love communities and build a family on the same level as having our own children, as opposed to a measure of last resort?
Anyhow, these are just some thoughts I had which are part of your main thesis. I really enjoy and look forward to more of these posts on children!! Thanks!
BTW -- agree on the camping part; my wife and I both work and the idea of camping on the weekend sounds like a nightmare; one-day hikes sound good! If I didn't work, then maybe I'd be more open to it. I do recognize that it is a cheaper vacation than staying at a hotel.
Love the old CT website!...reminds me of the Carmen Sandiego computer game I used to play.
((grumbles a bit under her breath in grumpy Catholic))
Joking aside, why from your perspective do you believe Catholics "overemphasize" procreation? Especially since our Church is largely run, and until fairly recently was largely educated, by celibate men and women without children?
When I camp, I camp in an RV. And that's roughing it plenty for me, thank you very much.
Growing up in the NYC area, all my Italian, Irish, and Hispanic friends who did premarital counseling at their Catholic church confirmed that the priests asked how many kids they wanted to have (3 or more were preferred) and pretty much worded it that they wouldn't be good Christians of they didn't have a family.
I recognize these are only my experiences and am certainly open to hearing different Catholic experiences.
I'll try and return to give this the longer reply it deserves later, but the short version of this is that individual priests and even cultural understandings of the Catholic Church's teaching don't always reflect it accurately. There's no official "ideally sized" family.
The other short answer is that while it's true that the Catholic Church sees marriage (well...sex in marriage )and openess to children as unbreakably linked,
1.) marriage is not the only legitimate vocation within the Church. There's others that don't involve having children at all and,
2.) it's helpful to understand what the reasoning behind that is. Humane Vitae is the Church document that explains why the Church teaches against Contraception, and does a good job explaining some of the rationale there.
You can't discern official Church teaching via individual experiences. You have to go to the Church documents themselves.
Also...Vatholic? Trying to decide if that was a typo or not, lol.
Just for the sake of dialogue, the general attitude and teaching from Pope Paul IV is that children are to be sought as a supreme good, and only avoided in marriage if there is a just cause or grave reason to avoid having children. There can ultimately be no prescribed amount given to the fact that each family has its own circumstances to discern. The principles however do establish that the view of new life is a part of one’s ontological dignity insofar as one can generate an immortal soul that death cannot destroy.
I know many single Christians feel there's an overemphasis on the nuclear family in American evangelicalism, and I've felt that myself -- I was frustrated as a single 22yo with a full-time job when the only women's Bible study my congregation had was at 10 a.m. on Tuesdays, clearly designed for the stay-at-home moms and elderly, not for me.
Also, I don't think everyone must have kids. But I do think having children is beneficial for many people, and outside of church communities that still have a more traditional culture, children have become a difficult decision people need help making. By "help" I mean both open discussion about it with older adults and the reassurance of practical support if childbearing is chosen.
On the surface this may look like more of the same overemphasis to the neglect of singles etc., but in substance I think it's quite different. Once overemphasis happened because families with kids were the default; now the issue is that they very much are not.
Faith was the compelling motive in our decision to have a large family. It was a big decision; aside from the obvious sacrifices involved, we also placed ourselves beyond the pale of our families and friends. I am conspicuous among my large extended family for having so many children (7) which seems to them to be some sort of elaborate joke. They tolerated this inconvenience, which seems to have moved to grudging respect in recent years, now that our children are grown up, educated, employed and independent.
The popular choice of number of children for the Catholic friends and family I grew up with seems to be three: not capitulating to the dictates of secular “replacement numbers only”, but also demonstrating that you haven’t lost your mind and can be taken seriously.
People seem to think that your large family is going to cost them something- they will have to invite ALL of you to various occasions; the number of bridal and baby showers will be absurd; the amount of Girl Scout cookies or fundraising rolls of wrapping paper they may feel obligated to buy will be more than anyone can tolerate. Like the Welfare Mother who carelessly brings children into the world whom she cannot support, and their fathers refuse to, the modern day large two parent family is regarded similarly. We eat more, have a larger carbon footprint, drive bigger vehicles, consume more than our fair share of scarce planetary resources. Interestingly, even when our family was at its largest, we set out the least trash in our neighborhood. We bought frugally, and what we bought we used up as completely as possible, like Native Americans and their buffalo. Old clothes were passed down, not thrown out. We couldn’t afford to change our decor and furnishings with each new trend. In fact, we bought your out of style castoffs, that were still useful.
This avoidance of having a larger family has to do with allegiance to a new morality, a new religious faith - sustainability, conservation of what are falsely thought of as scarce resources. The old Faith has been replaced by a new, false idol. Even those from whom one would hope to receive understanding and even celebration of your large family, look upon your rejection of the new morality (reduce/reuse/recycle) with suspicion. What are you going to cost us?
Yeah, this is an interesting dynamic -- especially that people feel the pressure of the consumerist norms (e.g. getting every kid presents) more strongly than the (theoretically much more serious) family norms. My new policy is to default to giving no other kids birthday or Christmas presents because they have enough stuff already and their parents agree with me about that, or just getting them something reasonably new-looking at the thrift store for a dollar if I really feel like I have to bring something.
In Genesis 1:28, I read that passage (with the context of the New Testament) that Christians need to share the Good News and help others to come into a relationship with God; I do not read that passage as a command to have more children. (I mean, have children by your choice, but not because you have a misconceived perception that God is commanding you to.)
I wonder if this misinterpretation (in my opinion) also causes Christians in USA to believe that IVF is their right. I wonder if this also leads to the USA church to unduly (and the Catholic church) to overemphasize the need to procreate. Shouldn't we have more elders in churches who are single and/or do not have children? Shouldn't Christians look at adoption as a step to love communities and build a family on the same level as having our own children, as opposed to a measure of last resort?
Anyhow, these are just some thoughts I had which are part of your main thesis. I really enjoy and look forward to more of these posts on children!! Thanks!
BTW -- agree on the camping part; my wife and I both work and the idea of camping on the weekend sounds like a nightmare; one-day hikes sound good! If I didn't work, then maybe I'd be more open to it. I do recognize that it is a cheaper vacation than staying at a hotel.
Love the old CT website!...reminds me of the Carmen Sandiego computer game I used to play.
((grumbles a bit under her breath in grumpy Catholic))
Joking aside, why from your perspective do you believe Catholics "overemphasize" procreation? Especially since our Church is largely run, and until fairly recently was largely educated, by celibate men and women without children?
When I camp, I camp in an RV. And that's roughing it plenty for me, thank you very much.
Growing up in the NYC area, all my Italian, Irish, and Hispanic friends who did premarital counseling at their Catholic church confirmed that the priests asked how many kids they wanted to have (3 or more were preferred) and pretty much worded it that they wouldn't be good Christians of they didn't have a family.
I recognize these are only my experiences and am certainly open to hearing different Catholic experiences.
I'll try and return to give this the longer reply it deserves later, but the short version of this is that individual priests and even cultural understandings of the Catholic Church's teaching don't always reflect it accurately. There's no official "ideally sized" family.
The other short answer is that while it's true that the Catholic Church sees marriage (well...sex in marriage )and openess to children as unbreakably linked,
1.) marriage is not the only legitimate vocation within the Church. There's others that don't involve having children at all and,
2.) it's helpful to understand what the reasoning behind that is. Humane Vitae is the Church document that explains why the Church teaches against Contraception, and does a good job explaining some of the rationale there.
You can't discern official Church teaching via individual experiences. You have to go to the Church documents themselves.
Also...Vatholic? Trying to decide if that was a typo or not, lol.
Thanks for the reply. Vatholic - fat fingers, haha..
Just for the sake of dialogue, the general attitude and teaching from Pope Paul IV is that children are to be sought as a supreme good, and only avoided in marriage if there is a just cause or grave reason to avoid having children. There can ultimately be no prescribed amount given to the fact that each family has its own circumstances to discern. The principles however do establish that the view of new life is a part of one’s ontological dignity insofar as one can generate an immortal soul that death cannot destroy.
late to this and peeking in at your conversation now; I'm just glad we can all agree about camping tbh
I know many single Christians feel there's an overemphasis on the nuclear family in American evangelicalism, and I've felt that myself -- I was frustrated as a single 22yo with a full-time job when the only women's Bible study my congregation had was at 10 a.m. on Tuesdays, clearly designed for the stay-at-home moms and elderly, not for me.
Also, I don't think everyone must have kids. But I do think having children is beneficial for many people, and outside of church communities that still have a more traditional culture, children have become a difficult decision people need help making. By "help" I mean both open discussion about it with older adults and the reassurance of practical support if childbearing is chosen.
On the surface this may look like more of the same overemphasis to the neglect of singles etc., but in substance I think it's quite different. Once overemphasis happened because families with kids were the default; now the issue is that they very much are not.
Faith was the compelling motive in our decision to have a large family. It was a big decision; aside from the obvious sacrifices involved, we also placed ourselves beyond the pale of our families and friends. I am conspicuous among my large extended family for having so many children (7) which seems to them to be some sort of elaborate joke. They tolerated this inconvenience, which seems to have moved to grudging respect in recent years, now that our children are grown up, educated, employed and independent.
The popular choice of number of children for the Catholic friends and family I grew up with seems to be three: not capitulating to the dictates of secular “replacement numbers only”, but also demonstrating that you haven’t lost your mind and can be taken seriously.
People seem to think that your large family is going to cost them something- they will have to invite ALL of you to various occasions; the number of bridal and baby showers will be absurd; the amount of Girl Scout cookies or fundraising rolls of wrapping paper they may feel obligated to buy will be more than anyone can tolerate. Like the Welfare Mother who carelessly brings children into the world whom she cannot support, and their fathers refuse to, the modern day large two parent family is regarded similarly. We eat more, have a larger carbon footprint, drive bigger vehicles, consume more than our fair share of scarce planetary resources. Interestingly, even when our family was at its largest, we set out the least trash in our neighborhood. We bought frugally, and what we bought we used up as completely as possible, like Native Americans and their buffalo. Old clothes were passed down, not thrown out. We couldn’t afford to change our decor and furnishings with each new trend. In fact, we bought your out of style castoffs, that were still useful.
This avoidance of having a larger family has to do with allegiance to a new morality, a new religious faith - sustainability, conservation of what are falsely thought of as scarce resources. The old Faith has been replaced by a new, false idol. Even those from whom one would hope to receive understanding and even celebration of your large family, look upon your rejection of the new morality (reduce/reuse/recycle) with suspicion. What are you going to cost us?
Yeah, this is an interesting dynamic -- especially that people feel the pressure of the consumerist norms (e.g. getting every kid presents) more strongly than the (theoretically much more serious) family norms. My new policy is to default to giving no other kids birthday or Christmas presents because they have enough stuff already and their parents agree with me about that, or just getting them something reasonably new-looking at the thrift store for a dollar if I really feel like I have to bring something.